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 Post subject: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:33 am 
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Location: River Rat country
:?: Just reread my Jim Corbett (the tiger shooter). He mentions a .500, which I guess is a Nitro Express. Can anyone tell me about the 450/400 double rifle? Like what current cartridge would it compare to?
Thanks, ///olde 8) pharte///

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:48 am 
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There were several 450/400 BPE's that were about like a 45/70.

The popular and still excellent 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express is about as powerful as the 375 H&H Mag. I am right now working on buying an older William Evans DR in 450/400 3 1/4 from a friend. He doesn't want to sell it, so I have to find something to trade that pushes his hot button. This may be good, as I have far more guns than $$$. As with all these old NE rounds, the cost per round is from $6.00 to $20.00...some even higher. :shock:

There was an early black powder version in the 450/400 3 1/4, also.

...$20.00/jerk on the trigger...??? :( Maybe he can keep his Bill Evans... :wink:

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:34 pm 
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The 450/400 came about when military calibers were banned for civilan use in some countries so the 450 was necked down to 400. In the nitro version it became the standard for all 40 calibers...ie...404 jeffery etc. The 3-1/4 versions tend to run 411 diameter and the 3 inch version 408.It has high sectional density bullets and makes it a great dangerous game caliber with out un-managable recoil. Brass is readily available and so are bullets so it's not to expensive to reload, i load for mine all the time.


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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:40 pm 
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93,

Right on target...! One does have to slug the bore of a 450/400, whatever chambering. There are .411 and .408 barrels, and one can be fooled into thinking that your 3 1/4" is a .411, or your 3" is a .408; there are som exceptions, but mostly they follow the rule.

What is your 450/400...make, action, etc.??

We need to get some more DR shooters posting here!!!No other gun is more Classic, IMHO. :D

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:06 pm 
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You're right about slugging the barrel although I didn't. The first shells I had were a box from Champlin's I bought just so we could shoot it right away. They were 408 and sprayed all over so I bought 411 Woodleigh's and they shoot very well. I have a friend who has one of the nicest Double Rifle gun collections in the states if not the world...(must be nice to be wealthy...lol) Any way he saw my rifle many years ago and thought with a little work it would make a fine rifle so he bought it. He never did anything with it and when he was back in town we got together and he offered to sell it to me for what he paid for it knowing I'd never sell it. ( you don't want to know the price, you'd just cry. I decided to completely restore and re-stock it. Research into the maker is still going on, Susan Boothroyd is looking in England for me. As yet we don't know the maker but we know it was made in 1913 and sold by Lawn and Alder Outfitters. It's a fully engraved boxlock and I'm pretty sure it's a London gun. 26 inch barrels and weighs 11 pounds. The stock had teardrops behind the action which is a bit rare on a boxlock. One standing and one folding leaf on a quarter rib. I believe it was sold as high grade hunter and it was hunted because I can see the wear difference in the barrels...the right one being fired more. I'll play with loads more when it's finished but I may have the load already. It pays to slow them down a bit when load searching because many of the old cordite loads were 100 to 150 fps slower than they thought. It goes to be color-cased and the stock to be checkered in a week or two then either this fall or first thing in the Spring it's off to Africa for Buff.


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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:58 am 
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93,

Where are you headed after your buff? Right now the Selous looks best. I won't hunt Zim with that commie dictator still in charge, and Northern Tanz has been in such a prolonged drought that I am not booking buffalo hunters there at present. The Selous has enough water that it can sustain decent herds through this terrible drought. Zambia is open again and has some good buff, but their prices are way out of line, as they are also in Botswana.

I may have a line on decent buffalo hunting in Mozambique. Moz is getting their act together little by little. One of their main problems is the long Portugese colonization and that culture's dower and brutal attitude being left over. It is a culture with little sense and sensibility regarding animal welfare. The PHs there have a "take it, or leave it" attitude, also...they are mostly Portugese...Moz still presents some travel adventures (salesman lingo for "problems" :wink: ) Accordingly, it provides some real flavor of old Africa.

Keep me posted regarding your DR's maker. You are right about slowing down the loads in the English guns. They were a bit optomistic when the early cordite loadings were developed. The English makers weren't averse to a bit of salesmanship and exaggeration...much like Winchester, when they brought out the 458 Mag. It's energy was vastly inflated in their early claims.

How are you going to stack the bullets for buffalo? I like a soft/right ... solid/left. Then, I like two solids in hand for follow up. In magazine rifles I use soft in chamber and the rest solids. The Woodleigh solids are very good, but I am not a fan of their softs for thick skinned bad guys. :? I certainly wouldn't use monolithic bullets in an older DR. The Woodleigh solids are about as hard as I would ever send down the tube...they are stout! :shock:

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:45 pm 
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Lol...I'll have to check. I'm pretty sure I'm booking with Kelly's Africa and I don't remember which countries he books in. I looked at so many. And it may be a 2 country hunt depending on whatelse I want to hunt. The first hunt is for Buff and Sable. I'll probably load as you do, Africa requires a bit of a re-think. Around here anything under 100 yards is considered an off hand shot and most guys I know head shoot everything under 100.


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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:06 pm 
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93,

If it is Kelly's for sable and buffalo it will be Zimbabwe...best guess. Zambia has some good sable in spots, also. Let me know the places and prices before you book. Kelly's seems to be an honest agent from my contact with them. There may be alternate areas that provide good hunting with more security or at lower costs. Do some shopping before you book with anyone. :idea: If the buffalo hunt is in the Selous, Tanzania, be sure the price includes the air charter in and OUT! Make sure the quote is carved in stone for the charter. Prices just went up quite a bit for the Tanz trophy fees; make sure any brochures ("brochure", thats a French word...translation: "folded horse manure" :wink: ) quote the most recent prices.

If you have any questions you want to ask me feel free. If I know the answer, I'll tell you straight. If I don't know, I'll tell you that I don't, but I may know someone who does.

My best advice regarding Africa is GO NOW!!! :!: :!: Things are changing, and these new emerging governments are screwing things up about as bad as humanly possible. :evil: Africa still is a bargain, but it won't be much longer. The corruption and greed of the new majority governments are taking a toll on animals and security. I am presently looking to book myself a hunt for next May or June with one of my outfitters...don't wait too long, my friend. :)

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:34 pm 
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Oh I intend to go as soon as possible.....certainly no later than the Spring. I would have booked this fall but I have some severe business deadlines to meet and my Mother passed away a couple of months ago so I need to settle her Estate. I've talked to and e-mail a couple of people who have booked with Kelly's. I posted at the Big Bore site for anyone who had an experience with them. All said he quoted everything 100 % accurately and there were no "surprises" They all said it was their intent to book through him again. I feel pretty comfortable with him. I checked many outfitters. I liked Paul Stones too but South Africa was very expensive. It's not the price I pay...it's what I get for it that matters to me. To do and hunt what I want the hunts in round numbers will be around 15,000 each depending how I fly there. I'm not sure I can stand economy for that long a flight.


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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:41 pm 
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Oh...you maybe interested... my plains game rifle is being built right now to. It's a completely blueprinted Argentine 98. 22 inch pipe....quarter rib with express sights and claw mounts...1.5 to 6 Lepould. Either Bastogne or English walnut exhibition grade. Three panel checkered bolt handle. timney trigger. Rust blued ofcourse. wrap around checkering Possibly some engraving but I don't do much of that on Bolt guns but do do quite a bit on lever guns and single shots. I just got back my matched pair of SAA's and he has my re-worked Marlin 93 right now. The caliber of the plains rifle....9.3x62.


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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 9:00 pm 
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93,

:shock: :shock: :shock: 8) 8) :D

The only thing I would do different for me is use a double set trigger...otherwise you will be getting my perfect rifle... 8) 8)

I assume it is an '09 Argentine. Be sure to have the receiver heat treated. The 09's are the slickest actions ever built IMHO, but they are a bit soft. I had a 257 Ackley built on one years ago and had a bit of bolt set back problems. I sent it off to PISCO, then at Janesville, CA, where Bob Dunlap heat treated it and cleaned up everything. It was a foolish thing I did when I traded it away... :cry: :cry: :oops:

I have two '09 Argentine actions still, and I'm going to have something unusual built on one. Do you have any suggestions as to what I should have built??? Anyone, step in here... :?: :?:

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:59 am 
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Shooter93, did you get to make your African hunt? Luck? Pix? Your thoughts (if any) on the merits of the .458 Lott?
tx,
///olde 8) pharte///

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Yep I made thwe hunt....3 wonderful weeks. It was a true fair chase hunt and the best I;ve ever been on. I can't post pics with my connection speed it takes way to long. Also...as you know when hunting yoiu don't see animals but rather parts of animals and it impossible to hunt like we did and carry a camera. There is nothing wrong with the Lott as long as recoil doesn't bother you. As far as that goes the standard 458 Win is quite adequate with good bullets. All our guns were loaded with Woodleighs at velocities ranging from 2150 to 2400 fps. Everyone of them shot clear throgh the animals including bone breaking shots on Buffalo. It's bullets and placement that counts not velocity. We crawled aamong them on hands and knees and you shoot at ranges meaasured in feet not hundreds of yds. Shoot what you shoot best...period. Even a 375 worked well


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 Post subject: Re: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:34 pm 
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shooter93 wrote:
The 450/400 came about when military calibers were banned for civilan use in some countries so the 450 was necked down to 400. In the nitro version it became the standard for all 40 calibers...ie...404 jeffery etc. The 3-1/4 versions tend to run 411 diameter and the 3 inch version 408.It has high sectional density bullets and makes it a great dangerous game caliber with out un-managable recoil. Brass is readily available and so are bullets so it's not to expensive to reload, i load for mine all the time.


Sorry to disagree, but advent of the 450/400 3 1/4" nor the 450/400NE 3" had nothing to do with the ban on the 450 diameter being oulawed in India, and the Sudan. That ban was in 1909, and the 450/400 3 1/4"in it's, blk pwdr form was introduced in 1880, by Kynoch,and was converted to smokeless in the mid 1890s. The 450/400NE 3 " Was introduced by Jeffery in 1896 and was never available in anything other than smokeless powder version.

Most of the 450/400 3 1/4" rifles are very heavy for caliber with most of them weighing in at around 11 to 11 1/2 pounds, with a few as heavy at 12 lbs. Addtionally, one must be very carefull when buying a 450/400 3 1/4" rifle, as a lot of them were for blk pwdr, ans were fed a diet of smokeless ammo after it became available. The cartridge case was not changed, and the Corddite rounds would chamber the same as the blk pwdr ammo. The 450/400NE 3" Jeffery was never offered in a blk pwdr version, so any rifle cahmbered for the 3" version is automaticlly a NITRO PROOFED rifle, and the two cartridges are not interchagable. The 3' will not chamber in the 3 1/4" rifle.

The 450/400NE 3 1/4", and the 450/400NE 3" are far more powerfull that the 375 H&H, with a 400 gr bullet compared to the 300 gr of the 375H&H. The 400s went down in popularity when the 375 H&H wasintroduced in 1912, but not because it was a better cartridge for dangerous game, but that it was cheaper to buy, in it's bolt action rifles, and was better down range, so was a better all around cartridge, for general use!

Many new rifle today are being chambered for the 450/400NE 3" Jeffery, and factory ammo is again available from several makers. Chambered in S/S double rifles, and O/U double rifles, as well as the Ruger No1, it is again taking it's very hounourable place as a very well ballanced cartridge for all around use on the largest thing one might want to hunt.

.......................Mac >>>===(x)===>


Last edited by MacD37 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: 450/400 double?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:09 pm 
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:lol: Mac, Very interesting reading. The British rifles and ammo are something I am lacking in my education. Read a lot of what Elmer had to say about them, but other wise I am a first grader :evil: Keep the information coming. :D


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