ShootingWorld.com

Welcome to the ShootingWorld Rifle Forum!
It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

308 will do bear yes or no
yes 87%  87%  [ 20 ]
no 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 23
Author Message
 Post subject: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:18 am 
Offline
.17
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:54 am
Posts: 2
i have got a new 308 BLR, i want to use it for a bear gun.

is 308 a ok caliber for black bears? 3-500 pound canadian ones

my concern is power, expansion and range.

last year when i tangled with bears using a 7mm-mag i had over penetration and no expansion. the bear i shot cried out jumped up and ran off lung shot( we got it still).


i have also purchased a 45 70 marlin guide gun. while i doubt i would have expansion issiues(and with a 45 cal entrance hole who cares), range, accuracy and speed of loading now concerns me the best i can get with this gun is a 2-3 inch group with every 5th shot going wild.


the BLR seems a strait shooter and has a fast action with easy loading drop-in mags but i am concerned about the cartridge size. i want something that can reach out and drop that bear! could this BLR be it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:15 am 
Offline
.308 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:24 am
Posts: 306
Location: NSW Australia
A Canadian mate of mine that I hunt with only uses a 308win on Black bear, when I said that I would take my 375H&H after them he said that I would get laughed out of the woods if I took it as the biggest rifle that they use in his area is a 30/06.

_________________
375H&H the one gun for all game


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:26 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Pittsburgh
I'm not a bear hunter, but know some who are - there are bears killed every year in PA with .308s, .30-06s, and .270's .... guys also use 30-30's & .243 .....

Most of the hunting here is done via drives where range is not an issue or a concern.

Just to give you an idea on PA bear sizes .... biggest one taken last year in excess of 700 lbs with several taken in excess of 600 lbs

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view ... 1&Q=173064

_________________
"Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense?" - Patrick Henry

I am the NRA, and I vote.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:22 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:25 am
Posts: 1287
Location: SW VA
308 is one of those underestimated cartridges. It'll do a heck of a more than some others and still not have the recoil. Go ahead!

HWD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:27 am 
Offline
.308 cal

Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 2:25 pm
Posts: 583
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
Of course it will work, as long as you do your part.

_________________
Mountainview


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:52 am 
Offline
.50 Caliber

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 1427
Any of the cartridges mentioned by the original poster would do extremely well for black bear. Your issue with the 7mm mag is the reaction one typically gets with a lung shot animal, not just bears. Lung shots do not drop an animal in its tracks, one needs to impact the central nervous system and in some instances when the heart is affected, for that to occur. Most bears hit in such a fashion, regardless of caliber or cartridge used, will react the same way and will typically be found within 100 yards, mostly much less, even when hit with arrows. It is very unlikely there was a problem with inadequate expansion unless the bear was shot at a rather distant range where the velocity had dropped off to the point it was approaching or passed the lower limit of the bullet's design parameters. Even then, it would take a very heavily constructed bullet to have this effect.
If you are shooting under 100 yards, the 45/70 would be a fine gun and the ability to shoot rapidly is not a great concern for the most part if you place the first shot correctly. I've been shooting black bears for a number of years and can only recall shooting a couple more than once when hunting. Most opportunities have been while shooting over bait so one can pick their shots carefully but from my past I have fired multiple shots at a bear has been once with a 357 mag handgun which is pretty underpowered for such an undertaking, once when muzzleloading myself and another hunter each fired on a bear he had previously wounded, and just last year when I shot a bear twice as the first one was a bit off and only broke its back which necessitated a second shot to kill it.
I've found the best bullets to be either standard construction, heavy for caliber bullets such as 160 gr or heavier in the 7mm, 400 gr or heavier in the 45/70, and 180 gr in the 308 or controlled expansion bullets such as Nosler Partitions or Accubond, Hornady Interbond, Winchester Fail Safe, Barnes TSX, etc. in middle to heavy for caliber weights. Examples would be 150 and up in the 7mm and 165 gr or heavier in the 308. For the 45/70 you are pretty much stuck with the 400 gr and heavier bullets, there is not much available in lesser weights with controlled expansion.
Your 308 will work just fine for black bears at any reasonable range with appropriate bullets and bullet placement. The same can be said for any other round mentioned in this thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:04 am 
i swapped the rem 7mm-mag for the blr, im a lefty that was using a right bolt.

and in fact the 7mm did not expand. we mesured the exit hole and it was the same size plus as the entrance we saw it ricotche of a rock 50 yards past the bear in a strait line. 180 grain winchester win mags where used.

speed is a big thing not for the second shot but the first, bc bear hunting can be like quick draw.

when you see the bear you freeze! wait ... wait,it looked away! draw and fire!

with that 50 yards a lung shot bear can travel =a very steep 300 foot gully.... 50 yards is too far lol.

thank you all for your info


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:38 am 
Offline
.50 Caliber

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 1427
Anonymous wrote:
i swapped the rem 7mm-mag for the blr, im a lefty that was using a right bolt.


Follow up shots can be a problem with a bolt but either the Marlin or Browning would be just fine. I have a BLR in 358 Win and recently bought a Marlin in 450 as well as having owned a number of Marlin 30/30s so have a good working knowledge of these guns. With proper first shot placement the need for a follow up is greatly reduced. Plus, being black bears, the odds of them attacking their antagonist is mighty, mighty small. I would be much more concerned with a moose than a bear. Choosing a different gun or action type based on being left handed is not a bad idea as the awkwardness of using a right handed gun in this instance can take away from the pleasure of the hunt. The caliber or cartridge choice was not the problem it seems, ergonomics was.

[quote=]and in fact the 7mm did not expand. we mesured the exit hole and it was the same size plus as the entrance we saw it ricotche of a rock 50 yards past the bear in a strait line. 180 grain winchester win mags where used. [/quote]

Never heard or saw of any 180 gr Winchester bullets in 7mm, biggest I've seen have been 175 gr. I am rather surprised about your finding a hole of .284" in diameter both entering and exiting the animal when using an expanding bullet as even full metal jacketed bullets leave holes a bit larger than their diameter upon entering and exiting flesh. The holes may appear to be bigger or smaller but upon actually examining them one will see that this a phenomena of the skin's elasticity. Entrance wounds can even appear larger than exit wounds on occasion which can be a problem for the medical examiner upon initial examination. Considering a bullet that expands to twice its diameter (a bit over 1/2" in this case) is considered to be having very good expansion, blowing a "fist sized" hole in the animal upon exiting is not caused by the bullet itself but instead by hydrostatic force and secondary projectiles such as bone fragments of which even those do not reliably cause such wounds. That one saw the bullet strike beyond the target has no bearing on whether the bullet expanded or not, all it means is the bullet passed through.

[quote=]speed is a big thing not for the second shot but the first, bc bear hunting can be like quick draw.

when you see the bear you freeze! wait ... wait,it looked away! draw and fire![/quote]

Hunting bears with a predator call is much the same except the bear usually does not look away and is focused on the source of the sounds as being food. Even then, I do not know of anyone who has been attacked or even threatened by a bear once it was shot. Before the shot is another story.

Quote:
with that 50 yards a lung shot bear can travel =a very steep 300 foot gully.... 50 yards is too far lol.

thank you all for your info


I'll gladly be attacked by any bear that will travel 50 yards after being hit if it is coming from the bottom of a 300 foot gully. It will be that much less hill to climb up after dressing and still be only half way between where the bear was and where I am. 70 or 80 yards would be even better, much closer and I might begin to be concerned.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:13 pm 
Offline
.308 cal

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 456
Location: Alaska-The Great Land
I'd have no qualms about using a .308 for black bear. The .308 is really the equivalent of the 30-06 with all but the heaviest bullets (try finding factory 220gr anymore BTW) and the premium bullets make those pretty much obsolete.

A 500 to 600lb black bear is a real trophy but a more realistic figure is 300. I don't know about the hunting technique in your area but typically bears taken over bait are very close- 30-50yds. Up here the bear hunters over bait frequently shoot handguns over bait. Forested country that black bears love generally limits the range to 100 or so tops. A quick handling rifle (like a BLR) with a low power scope lets you make quick and effective hits. I think your choice makes an excellent black bear rifle.
I would suggest that a heavy bullet- say a 180gr. in a premium bullet would be the way to go. I have some older .308 180gr. Fail Safe's I've thought about for bears.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:03 pm 
Offline
.50 Caliber

Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:31 pm
Posts: 3679
Location: Helena,Montana
Not really sure about all factory loaded ammo Hodgeman but the Winchester ammo chart I have shows the 30/06 heads and heals above the 308,all the reloading manuals I have(Alot!)shows at least 200 fps increase in 30/06 above the 308,some alot more than 200 fps,only difference is much smaller bullets.200 fps is about the difference between the 30/06 and 300 win mag.
Of the bears I have taken and seen taken were taken with 30/06's and a few 270's but they were about 250 lbs,the largest almost went 350 lbs,very rare where I was from,with that being said I feel a well placed shot with a 308 could take the bears I have seen taken,800 lbs and I would have a larger rifle than a 308,at least a 30/06.Thats just my opinion though.Drop-Shot

_________________
Remember,every day above ground is a good day


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:41 pm 
Offline
.308 cal

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:17 pm
Posts: 456
Location: Alaska-The Great Land
Drop, in the Remington line there's only 90fps difference in 150gr loadings and 80fps in the 180gr loading. The 300 Win Mag goes about 250 fps faster than the 06.

A handloader can boost the '06 somewhat but the .308 less so.

The difference in the 200 and 220gr loads will be more but with a premium bullet the need for heavier is somewhat limted.

I really feel the only difference at 100 yds will be the pounding on your shoulder and your wallet. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:59 pm 
Offline
.22 cal

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Georgia
I have a 308 BLR and I will hunt anything in the lower 48 with it. For Big Bears and other giants I have a 338-378, great rifle bites at both ends. I also have a 45-70 Guide Gun and it shoots great with Sierra 300 bullets on top of 49 grains of IMR 4198. A real game getter. Try it, it really works. I have gotten 2 400 lb. bears with it. If I could only have one rifle it would be the Guide Gun, maybe in 450. I do have have a question, I have never seen or heard of a 180 grain 7 mm. Where did you get them. The reason I am asking, I would like to try some.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:58 pm 
Offline
.50 Caliber

Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:31 pm
Posts: 3679
Location: Helena,Montana
Hodgeman look at any reloading manual.heck stand a 308 aside the 30/06 and look at the difference,the 308 will never be a 30/06.There are so many older 30/06's out there that the pressures are kept low for a reason for factory loads,100 year old cartridges have 100 year old shooters,reloading is the way to go to get the most from the 100 year old cartridge.The newest Hornady lists the 165 gr 308 at a max of 2600 fps,the 30/06 lists the max for the same bullet at 2900fps,300 fps difference,the 180 gr lists the 308 at 2500 fps,the 30/06 lists the same bullet at 2700 fps,190 gr 308 is listed at 2400 fps and 30/06 lists the same bullet at 2700 fps.I knew the difference is close to 300 win mag velocitys but couldn't remember the exact amount.The 308,while a great cartridge,will never be a 30/06 just as a 30/06 will never be a 300 win mag.That may all be a moot point as a 308 in capable hands is as deadly a cartridge as any at reasonable distances.The 30/06 extends that distance and the 300 win mag extends it even farther.
With that said I still like the 308 and have taken alot of deer with that caliber.Drop-Shot

_________________
Remember,every day above ground is a good day


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:31 pm 
Offline
.308 cal
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 10:03 pm
Posts: 240
Location: US of A
I think the 308 is perfectly fine for black bear. With good premium bullets, it's a good choice. So is the '06 and other calibers in that class.

For brown and grizzly, you'd definitely want to go bigger. They bit real hard... :shock:

_________________
All I need is a fine shotgun, a good rifle, a great dog, and a fine drink.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: 308 for bear?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:58 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:25 pm
Posts: 103
Location: TEXAS
Hell, just about anything will kill Black Bear, even very big ones! The reason you traded the 7mm for a 308 had nothing to do with killing power, but was because of the left handed shooter! The key to killing a black bear without loseing him is place the bullet in the right place with the first shot. The 7mm Rem Mag has just as much killing power that the 308, from muzzle to 300 yds, or farther. The key here is to use the right bullet, and place it where it does the most good. The 308 is a fine black bear cartridge, but so is the 7mm, but your advantage is haveing a rifle you can shoot properly, in the BLR.

A lung shot on a black bear, is sure death to that bear, but many are lost with lung shots, because the black bear tend to not leave a blood trail. This is because the skin is loose, and there is a layer of fat under the skin. This causes the bullet holes in the skin on the enterence side, the fat layer of that same side, and fat layer on the off side, and the skin on the off side to not line up while the bear is running, so no blood trail. A Bear cna sustain horrendous wounds, and leave no blood trail at all, but bleed out in a short distance internally, and die! Top this off with the fact that most good bear habitat is in moss covered floor woods that soaks up any blood that is dropped, makeing it very hard to track them.

As was said earlier, one must turn off the electricity to drop him in his tracks, and the only thing that will do that is a CNS hit, ot a shot very near to the CNS, but even then when he hits the ground tap him again, reload, and watch him very closely, because they sometimes get up after a while, so be ready to shoot once more!

A 243 with a proper bullet, and placement, is just as deadly as a 500NE,on black bear, or anything in between, if the right bullet is placed properly!

.................Good hunting with your BLR, and I suggest a 180 gr Nosler Partition, in front of 43.5 grs of H380 @ 2360 fps! Place it right, and you got a dead black bear! :)

_________________
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
Board member of, Double Rifle Shooter's Society
If I die today, I have a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group