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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:23 am 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:51 am 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:25 pm 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down for afew days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
an Enfield bolt gun. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on bases.

Opened port and changed bolt stop on Enfiels action. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
bolt action in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:58 am 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr sabot slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
These are long sabot slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick more.They won't
blow up, just stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:34 am 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 3:20 am 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:36 pm 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:50 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:27 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:01 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:44 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:18 pm 
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.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Bottom extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:39 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:23 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed
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 Post subject: Re: 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 am 
Offline
.223 cal

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Location: Brinton, MI
More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED
Image
Image


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