This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartridges.

Discussion in 'Rifle Opinions' started by TXVAshooter, May 5, 2004.

  1. TXVAshooter

    TXVAshooter Super Member

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    Can anyone enlighten me as to why there's been such a big surge in popularity? I guess I'm too old school, hunting with tried and true cailbers. (.243, 30-06, etc) I'm not knocking them, just trying to figure out why lately there's been a surge in developing new cartridges for older calibers. That said, I do like the look of the new .204 ruger and that .17 HMR.
     
  2. markIVbigblock

    markIVbigblock Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    yeah I dont understand the new short magnums and these winchester super short magnums although I am intrigued by the 223 wssm but what makes these better than the standard cartridges? I can see a shorter bolt throw on a rifle for a faster follow up shot but they seem to have better ballistics too does anyone have any explanation for this? it seems we are rehashing old cartridges to keep people buying new rifles. with that being said i fully support all the new cartridges coming out the .204 the 17 mach 2 the 17 HMR (fairly new) but rehashing old cartridges just seems like a way to boost sales. can someone explain the advantages to these short cartridges?

    Aaron
     

  3. wwb

    wwb Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    The only practical advantage I can see is a that you can carry a short-action rifle with the poop of a longer cartridge.

    Benchrest shooters and wildcatters proved a long time ago that, for some obscure reason, short & fat cases burn powder more efficiently, give more uniform velocity, and better accuracy. The difference, unless you are a benchrest shooter, is insignificant, though.

    My feeling is that it's mostly marketing hype to help sell a bunch of new rifles to people who just gotta have the latest, greatest thing on the block. They'll justify owning it by pointing out the marginal increase in velocity at 500 yards, even though they couldn't hit a boxcar at that range.
     
  4. Aix Sponsa

    Aix Sponsa Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    I agree with that HYPE i know a few guys that I shoot with that got the 300 short and they wore the berals out.
    we shoot three times a week and compet with in our owen grop and my 270 win ss has yet to fail me or my 7mm rem mag.
    Im old school my self ill keep what I know works. AIX
     
  5. IRISH9

    IRISH9 Well-Known Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    From the point of view of a cartridge collector it's great :lol: . I wouldn't be buying one at least until they are proven over a few years, it would be a bugger to find that the caliber of your new rifle was not popular and became obsolete after a few years, I like rare cartridges but not gun's I can't shoot.
     
  6. Jeff23

    Jeff23 Well-Known Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    I looked at them a bit before my recent rifle purchase and could't see much use to them except that the young guys in the deer camp I go to all had 'em. I hate to say it, but my conclusion was like the one you guys reached--the hunting and fishing industry loves to sell us stuff we don't need. That said, these rounds do seem to be quite effective. Two of the guys in my outfitter's camp had rifles in .300WSM, they were using 180 grain bullets. For those loads, muzzle velocity was dang close to 3000 fps, and with a 150 grain bullet they're about 3300 fps. Semms pretty fast to me, although I realize that there's alot more to reading a ballistics chart than muzzle velocity. Both of them got deer,and with nice clean one-shot kills. But they were also good hunters and had excellent opitcs.

    I guess my comment would be, "buy whatever you like, just don't think you've GOT to have the latest of everything to be successful."
     
  7. Drop-Shot

    Drop-Shot Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    Hi this Drop-Shot and my gunsmith told me that the short fat case has a better burn rate that the longer cases.I noticed that my weatherby 300 throws alot of unburned powder on the table and front of the floor and posts,he says that a short fat 300 win mag has almost 95 % burn and thats why the short fat mag has better ballestics than the good old 300 win mag.I don't know if I buy that because he sells guns also,besides being a gunsmith.I have never needed more than the 30-06 and 300 weatherby.If those two can't bring it down then I don't need to be there,any way thats what he says.
     
  8. cowpoke

    cowpoke Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    My thoughts are that the primary reason for them is to sell firearms and scopes and ammo, mostly firearms.

    It is true regarding the short, fat powder shape burning better,


    but so what

    The animals we hunt today are no tougher than the ones hunted for the past however long mankind has been hunting with firearms.

    I'm sticking with my 30-30, 30-06, 270, 243, 223 and 22-250 for the hunting I do and they do the job in fine fashion.
     
  9. Drop-Shot

    Drop-Shot Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    Cowpoke,if you ever recieve one as a gift,would you take it? or what if you were ever offered a deal so sweet but it was a short fat mag,would you get it? Drop-Shot
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    Guys:

    If most of the arguments here are "why do we need them"...think about it for a minute...granted you may not see the need ...but whats wrong with improving the ballistics and accuracy on the old tried and true cartridges they are supplamenting...not replacing...who hasn't tried to better their loads...of course they want to sell more guns and ammo...that's what they are in buisness for...if they didn't try to come up with something new every now and then..the market would go flat for them...do they really improve the old...some of them do..some are so-so..but from the ones I've seen...they do really make a difference...especially the 270WSM...it's a better improvement than Hornady's LightMag Ammo in velocity and accuracy...the others I haven't shot..but they are close to the same improvement all around... look at it this way...you may never buy one or use one...but all of the new shooters coming into the market...may see one they like enough to try one of them....If your tried and true 223,243,270,and 300 are enough for you...so be it...but there are others that do like them...and enjoy shooting them....does it make them better??? Probably not to the majority...but so-what...if that's what they want...so be it... Thank God everyone is different...it sure would be a boring world if they wern't.


    mac
     
  11. wwb

    wwb Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    I guess that's true to some extent.... think about guys like us almost 100 years ago, arguing the merits of coming out with the .30-'06 Springfield when we already had the .30 Gov't (the .30-40 Krag as it is now known).

    The difference, though, is the total number of different cartridges available - there were far fewer then, and the significant jumps in performance when a new cartridge/caliber was introduced.

    There have been, over the years, quite a few cartridges that became crippled orphans or died completely. There was never anything wrong with them, they just weren't enough different or enough better than an already existing cartridge, so they died on the vine. The next few years will have the final say on the fate of this rather large group of new cartridges.
     
  12. cowpoke

    cowpoke Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    It appears as if I came across more negative than I intended.

    I hold no grudge against anyone who buys and likes the new short magnums.

    If I won one at a banquet I'm not sure what I would do with it.

    One of my friends recently won a 7mm WSM bolt gun at a banquet and traded it for a 30-06.

    I think the primary reason they are invented is for gun sales.

    I am not convinced the increase in performance is that great.

    The little graphs where they show bullet flight paths are constucted in such away as to make the path appear more flatter than the original than it is.

    Once again if that is what someone likes fine Iwon't refuse to hunt or shoot with them. I think that they are just a little over-rated.
     
  13. TXVAshooter

    TXVAshooter Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    I've seen a lot of interesting comment since I first posted this thread. You're all right to an extent. to each his own on shooting what they like. for me, i'll stick with the old reliables, but if I get a little money, I'll try a new reliable.... :D
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    What is wrong with variety in the shooting and firearms world? Let's face it, who really needs anything more than a .22, 12 gauge, and 30-06? But how much fun would it be if these were the only rounds available and what need would there be for such neat forums like this?

    A second consideration is that a firearms company needs to make money to stay in business, they do not exist as charitable organizations. The short mags are admittedly a marketing tool to generate sales but I would be extremely sad to see the US arms makers go out of business and ask yourself just how many 30-06 rifles you are willing to buy. The short mags provide me with at least a plausible excuse to get a new firearms, not that I really need an excuse but the Mrs has been figuring out that long, flat boxes being carried into the house usually equate to a new firearm rather than home improvement tools.
     
  15. TXVAshooter

    TXVAshooter Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    welcome guest, come on and register here for some lighthearted discussion on rifles. you're right..nothing wrong with getting a new short fat magnum, whatever floats your boat....
     
  16. Grouse Getter

    Grouse Getter Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    IMO the only advantage to the short magnum is slightly more efficiency due to the shorter fatter case and the ability to get that performance from a rifle with a shorter action. Can they do anything that the others cannot? Not really. This idea is not new as the advantage of a short fat case was realised with the introduction of the 6mm PPC back in the mid 70's. This cartridge generaly dominated the benchrest circuit ever since. I just think it is kind of strange that they waited 25 to 30 years to implement this design to other calibers. IMO much of this is marketing hype to boost sales of more rifles. :D
     
  17. TXVAshooter

    TXVAshooter Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    This thread had some life to it, greatness! I'm headed out soon to try on of these new magnums, in about a month, a compadre is getting one, I'll let you know if the hype is worth it for me. Note, I said for me. In the meantime, i'm trying to decide on getting a new pistol, either a .480 or the .454. Decisions decisions.
     
  18. Drop-Shot

    Drop-Shot Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    Grousegetter makes a good point,new shells means new dies and a host of other things.I might get one one day but what they will do most older rounds will do a little less,but these less rounds have been bringing home the bacon for a long time,and right now I can't buy another rifle this year,so the old fashoned 30/06.243,358,300weatherby,300 savage,308,45/70 was used in the late 1800's and it still is great.Time only makes a good cartridges great cartridges.and time has to pass awhile.Drop-Shot
     
  19. Drop-Shot

    Drop-Shot Super Member

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    I ment to say the 45/70 cartridges have been used since the late 1800's .The others are more recent.Sorry but I was trying apple cobbler and type at the same time and words came together.Drop-Shot
     
  20. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    re: This craze with the short fat magnums, new rifle cartrid

    Grouse Getter Got it Good :idea:

    Short and fat cases are more efficient than the long and tapering cases. Ackley proved this long ago. The only use I can see for the waive of these calibers, however, is to sell new firearms. The manufacturers need to sell guns to stay in business. Who can fault them for that! :idea: :?: :idea: :?:

    These calibers are fine for N. America, but you wouldn't catch any African hunter using them. In extreme conditions I like the great old '06, 300 H&H or 375 H&H. They feed and extract every time. These short fat cased calibers don't have that advantage.

    All that aside, I'll have to get one...just to have one... :wink: