223, 22-250

Discussion in 'Rifle Talk' started by mike .308, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. mike .308

    mike .308 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know why they won't allow 223's, and 22-250's on deer even though it has enough power for deer.
     
  2. mountainview

    mountainview Super Member

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    Even a 22 RF can kill a deer and I'd not be averse to using a 223 or 22-250 but I'd be real particular about choice of shots, shot, placement, and the bullet I used. Even so, there are so many better cartridges available for deer hunting that I leave my 223 home when I take to the woods.

    The "power" (I think you mean energy) necessary to kill individual species is oft debated but depends on quite a few variables and no clear relationship has been established that a hit from caliber x on critter y in anatomy part z equals percent kill probability. There was an interesting study (as close to scientificly done as was possible) done in South Africa durng a buffalo culling oepration but while some interesting theories emerged, no concrete conclusions were reached.
     

  3. wired

    wired Guest

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    I've heard of people who have killed elephants with a .22LR, but that's taking it to an extreme. I've heard of many people taking deer with a .223, but even in the right hands, it's a bit less than what you'd want. Shot placement has to be almost perfect for it to be effective, and you'd have to use some very nice bullets to be able to get it to perform properly on a deer-sized animal. Save the .223 for varmints and target shooting (both of which it is superb for).

    MV nailed it right on the head. There are an enormous number of calibers much more suited to deer, so why handicap yourself more than you have to and risk injuring game? Use a proper caliber for whatever animal you hunt. It's the right thing to do, plus it works so much better. What constitutes "proper" for any game will be different for most people, ranging from "bigger is better" to "whatever you can hit with", to "whatever is cheap". I've heard .30-30 is marginal at best for deer :roll: , and the same for .243. Neither one can be doubted for deer, for sure. Play it safe and use a cartridge that has some punch to it.
     
  4. uglydog

    uglydog Super Member

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    As one who has taken a couple of deer and pronghorns with both calibers, I feel strongly that they should not be allowed for big game animals. These are very much experts' calibers and one must be very sure of themselves, their shot, and their ammo selection. There are few commercially loaded cartridges even marginally suitable for big game available and they are among the most expensive. With the vast majority of hunters having no idea how important bullet construction is in these calibers, they buy the least expensive ammo they can rather than the most suitable. This leads to increased wounding potential with the varmint style bullets most commonly found if the hunter can't pass up all but the most perfect of shots. Even with the most effective bullets, many simple shots for other calibers are not responsible with the smaller ones. The hunter also has to be experienced enough to be able to control his nerves to make this shot which is not the case for many. Add to all the above the likelihood of no exit hole and the accompanying blood trail, the odds of recovering a hit animal by a disappointing number of hunters is slim. For pronghorn and deer under 120 pounds live weight, the .22/250 might be marginally effective with the Winchester 64 gr Power Point or Federal's 60 gr Nosler Partition and 55 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw but how many will spend around $25 for a box of twenty shells when one can find others for less than $15? In my experience, not many and those that would would likely buy a much better suited caliber. Just say no to the .22 centerfires for big game; it didn't work for the .22 Savage High Power, it is not "enough" even with today's better bullets.
     
  5. wwb

    wwb Super Member

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    uglydog hit it right on the head.... the energy is there (although the .223 is getting pretty light), but if you're not a handloader, you're screwed on bullet selection.

    And, even with the right type of bullet, a bullet that starts at .224 just can't get very large, and can't make much of a wound channel.

    The bottom line is that the .243 is really the minimum you should consider for deer, even though the .22 centerfires are legal in some states.
     
  6. Tex

    Tex Guest

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    It really depends on where you are hunting. Up north, where deer are bigger/heavier the .22's are too small. In Central Texas where whitetails are slightly bigger than a big coyote, they're plenty - inside 150-200 yds. My son, who is now 8, has killed 3 deer with his .223 over the last two seasons (ages 6 & 7). He hit one deer behind his front leg in the chest/lungs - where you'd aim with a bow. He ran about 50 yds before falling. The next one, he hit in the base of the neck and her back landed exactly in the last tracks her hooves ever made. The next one was about 160 yds. out, and she was hit in the top of the shoulder/base of the neck. She dropped instantly into her last tracks as well.

    The first two shots were 75 yds. or so each. He had to shoot through a small opening in the brush at the second deer, but not "through the brush", cutting through limbs and leaves. The .223 or the .22/250, .224 Wby, et. al., is not a "brush busting" cartridge at all, of course. But on small-bodied deer, it's all you need. "In the right hands" arguments apply to any gun. If you gut shoot a deer with any caliber, it'll run off before dying - sometimes a LONG way. If you shoot one where it counts, it'll drop like a rock.

    I wouldn't want to shoot at a charging 400# wild boar with a .223, with the thick skin and heavy bone and thick muscle to penetrate before reaching the vitals. Little Central Texas whitetail that weigh 100# to maybe 175# for a BIG buck are another matter though.
     
  7. The_Cook

    The_Cook Guest

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    I actually got to talk to some park rangers about this a month or so ago. Much like everyone said the bullet may have the energy, but you have to hit the deer with pinpoint accuracy with a 223. A majority of hunters cannot do that especially under hunting conditions. So game wardens limit the types of bullets usable to keep from having a bunch of deer running around that are injured or maimed leading generaly unhappy lives until they die of complications hours or days later.

    If I had medical coverage like deer do I would hope that if someone were to shoot me they would put me down quick, rather than to let me die a slow painful death alone and afraid in some thicket.

    When I was an EMT working in Los Angeles I brought a bum in that suffered a knife wound to the gut that we found in compton. He was hit a day or two before and no one helped him. He died in the hospital a day later. My first john doe.

    Saw an old lady also that survived two days with a colapsed lung before death.

    Also a person with internal bleeding that lasted two weeks. Doctors couldn't stop it. Something to do with a thin walled aorta that had a pinhole in it with some other complications.

    When my time comes I hope it is swift. The last thing I want to do is die screaming and terrified. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It applies to all things on this planet.

    OH BTW had a friend that had his liver blown out because some dickweed with a .22 special decided he didn't like the cut of his jib. He got shot from behind and the .22lr lodged in his liver. He is sans a large protion of his liver now, but still hail and healthy. If a .22lr fired from a saturday night special from 3yrds away can't even kill a person with a liver shot I would be very weary of using it on anything bigger than a very large dog (like those alps dogs with the wiskey kegs).
     
  8. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    Why play with LADY FINGERS, when there are plenty of M80s and CHERRY BOMBS around :?:

    I am convinced that nothing smaller than a 243 with 100 gr bullets should be allowed for antelope, on up. There are exceptional hunters who are exceptional shots who can use about any caliber with success...but they are THE EXCEPTION :!: :!:

    Bell shot thousands of elephants with a 7X57... :shock:

    Corbett shot dozens of tigers with a 7X57... 8)

    I know someone who poached deer with a 22 L.R. with shots in the eye when he was young and dirt poor, just to feed his family...

    These were exceptional shots and hunters. This isn't for the average guy who hunts deer once a year. And, I am not trying to say that the average deer hunter isn't a competent hunter...the vast majority are! We have a wealth of excellent and adaquate calibers for this application.

    The 223 was developed for shooting Commies :idea:
    The 22-250...for shooting other varmints, besides Commies...

    ...just my opinion...take it as that...
     
  9. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    WELCOME TO OUR NEW MEMBER :!: :!:

    Tex,

    We need experienced hunters like yourself...ones with different opinions. :D Jump right in. :p

    L2S
     
  10. Mule

    Mule Well-Known Member

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    I have not had the good fortune to hunt all over the world as L2S has. His experience and knowledge far surpass mine. My deer hunting terrain is the Missouri hill country.

    Ever the contrarian, I have experienced success with the little .223 remington and have no misgivings about its use. I have found the 60gr Partition and 64gr WWPP to perform equally well. The PP however is half the price. I am a reloader and spend time taloring loads for specific rifles and applications. At this time the PP is my bullet of choice for the .223.

    Like many things in life, the decision to use a small caliber rifle is often economic. If it is the only gun available, you can't afford to buy another and it is legal, use it.

    With children and other first time hunters, where recoil is a concern, the small calibers come into their own. With practice and coaching a child can learn to shoot the small calibers effectively. In a hunting situation, the parent should be seated next to the child, control the ammunition, and call the shot. At reasonable ranges the .22's are effective.

    The older I get, the more I have come to believe that it matters little what you shoot. The important part is how you shoot.

    I would much rather have my child sitting next to me in the woods with a small gun, than have him sitting at home exercising his thumbs in front of the television.

    L2S,
    Are you referring to Willis Corbett?
     
  11. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    Mule,

    Those are all good points. I just feel the overriding point is respect for the animal, and I feel we should use whatever is most effective, available to us. If a 223 is what you have, and meat on the table is a concern, who am I to say its wrong. I've had to use a 22 with a toilet roll silencer to feed my family...many years ago, and I'll never say a word against anyone who has to do the same. :)

    Remember, at some time or another even the best shots among us will not connect properly; then is when that extra edge is all important. As far as recoil and the young hunter is concerned, there are two solutions:

    1. The young hunter has to wait to shoot their animal until they are able to use enough gun. I don't care what the State's game law says about being of legal age, size and maturity are far more important when a child is given a deadley weapon and asked to kill something. Bring them along and make them feel that they are an essential part of the hunt. When they are ready, let them shoot their own animal.

    2. There are good alternatives like a 30-30 or 35 Remington that are far better deer calibers than the 22's. They can be had in accurate single shot H&R based rifles. Children don't shoot as well on average as adults, and are prone to excitement and buck fever far more than we are. They need an edge, not a handicap.

    I know I'm a paininthea$$ preacher at times, but this is something I feel strongly about;please forgive me for this... Imagine, though, how awful a child would feel if they wounded an uncollected quary that just might have been recovered, had a more adaquate caliber been used.???

    Mule, please keep your kids in the field, like the good dad you are or will be. We need men like you who think about kids and their upbringing. :D

    About Corbett...Major Jim Corbett, who had the unenviable task of removing with prejudice the most dangerous of tigers, the man-eaters. He plied his trade in India in the 1920's and 30's, primarily, and up until WWII. One such tiger, the Chowgarh Man-Eater killed and devoured 64 villagers from 1926 to 1930. :shock: Most often, Corbett would be accompanied by his little dog, Robin. Corbett was far more afraid of a frightened and nervous "helper" behind him with a gun than he was of a man-eating tiger, somewhere in the forest around him. :wink:

    If you ever run across the book, "Maneaters of Kumaon" by Corbett, BUY it! It will teleport you into a time, now gone. :eek:
     
  12. uglydog

    uglydog Super Member

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    As stated by Luv2Safari, there is a measure of respect for the animal that needs to be maintained. The use of a more effective cartridge should be a goal and with kids one should wait until they are physically and mentally mature enough to use such a cartridge. One also must remember that we are speaking generalities here, not individuals. Most hunters of any age are not calm, picky, and practised enough to wait and place their shots precisely. I won't begrudge someone keeping their family's "body and soul" together but for most hunting is more recreation than necessity and one should arm themselves accordingly. As mentioned, a poor shot will happen and one should have the means of ending the animal's suffering with a follow up shot. The .22 centerfires are marginal at best for ideal shots, for the bad angles follow up shots are offered, they are disappointing at best.
     
  13. Mule

    Mule Well-Known Member

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    L2S and Uglydog,

    I appreciate your comments. The children I mentored in the above fashion are now young men and have moved up to .30-06, .270 Win and 7mm SAUM.

    Perhaps one year I will have a grandchild to hunt with.

    I am still involved as a youth athletics coach and I am a volunteer Hunter Education Instructor. Youth are the future of our sport. If it isn't fun, they stay home and exercise their thumbs. I do my best to keep it fun.

    Gentlemen, Good Luck this fall!

    L2S,
    There is a gentleman in these parts that worked as a PH in Africa. Willis Corbertt
     
  14. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    Raking shots, quartering shots, straight away shots...NONE of the pipsqueeks will get the job done, period. Thats just the way things are. :idea: As with DG or deer, stopping power is absolutely necessary at some time over the years. :shock:

    OK...I'll duck and watch the flack... :wink: :wink:
     
  15. uglydog

    uglydog Super Member

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    Maser,
    Where did you get the idea that it is acceptable to wound a deer with anything? Placing a non-killing shot with an arrow which allows the animal to go off and suffer is no different than doing the same thing with a rifle (or rocket propelled grenade for that matter) in that it is not an acceptable goal. A properly hit deer will be just as dead with an arrow as with a rifle. One thing that you will eventually learn is that velocity is not what kills an animal but penetration. To get that penetration one does need an adequate velocity but one also needs a bullet with enough weight to maintain momentum and constructed stoutly enough to hold together to reach the vitals. That is why there are many types of bullets as some are meant for varmints, some for deer, others for larger game such as elk and bear, and even those meant for really big and tough animals like Cape buffalo and elephant.
    In the case of the .22 centerfires, excluding FMJ which aren't generally legal for big game, the bullets are mainly designed to expand rapidly on small animals like woodchucks or prairie dogs to provide quick kills on them and also to decrease the likelihood of richochettes in the event of a miss or even hit. As these animals are only a few inches thick (even a coyote is not much over 8" in many cases) a bullet made to expand this quickly may have difficulty reaching the near lung of a deer in the best of circumstances and may not go even that far if a rib or shoulder is hit. A hit in one lung will kill a deer but it is still capable of of travelling large distances which can greatly decrease the chances of finding it.
    Withstanding recoil is dependant on many factors, mental and physical maturity are a couple along with becoming accustomed to recoil by gradually working one's way up. I just don't feel the .22 centerfires are a capable cartridge in the hands of the typical deer hunter and something else should be used. With the availibility of many effective, low recoil rounds such as the .257 Roberts, .250 Savage, .260 Rem, 6.5x55 Swede, etc. the use of the .22 centerfires on deer sized game are not a good option in my opinion.
     
  16. Maser

    Maser Super Member

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    Re: re: 223, 22-250

    lol ok maybe i worded it a lil wrong but what i was trying to say is y aint small bullets allowed to hunt with if it has the power to kill it? i mean sure a bigger bullet has more energy n stopping power but a .22 caliber bullet through the heart will kill a deer jus like an arrow will
     
  17. The_Cook

    The_Cook Guest

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    Don't get me wrong 22lr is a great little round, and it will if you hit the deer in the heart with it. But that's the trick of it maser, getting the bullet to the heart. If you take a look at a deer skeleton you'll see that the heart is pretty well protected. Got a thick chest plate in the front and good stout ribs all around. IMO it will be more of a lucky shot if you actually penetrate to the heart with a .22lr

    Give you an example, from a .22lr saturday night special (gun with a 3" barrel and 12rnd clip) fired at about 3yrds away. My friend had the bullet lodge in his liver. Liver shot has no obstructing bone in the way. If a .22lr shot from a 3" barrel from about 3yrds away can't even make it past the liver to make an exit wound from behind I doubt you will be able to lodge a bullet in a deers heart except for freakishly lucky shots.

    Besides, why mess around? The thought of wounding a deer and going home empty handed really bothers me.

    Oh by the by.. I figured out a solution to my tufts of fur and blood problem with my 30-06 when it comes to desert hare. Aim for the head! I got to do some load tuning with my 150gr Rem. Coreloks and found a load that made 1.75" groups. Went out this afternoon to palmdale and bagged myself a whole hare sans head. Stewed it after I came home, cheapest meal I ever ate! total: 12cents for bullet, Hare FREE, veggies 80cents, potatoes 10cents. Total spent on hare stew $1.02
     
  18. The_Cook

    The_Cook Guest

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    Jesus I need to read better, Sorry ALL for some reason when someone says .22 I immediatly think .22lr :? SO SORRY EVERYONE!!!
     
  19. huntswithdogs

    huntswithdogs Moderator

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    Mazer,

    One thing that folks don't think about(myself included)when comparing hunting with a bow against a firearm is this....The arrow has a surface that is generally at least 1" across.This surface is a RAZOR BLADE. The damage is unimaginable if you've never gutted a deer that's been shot with one.I saw one that had an exit hole that looked much like a shotgunslug wound last year. The trauma and shock is what kills with a bow.

    HWD
     
  20. uglydog

    uglydog Super Member

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    Energy is not the whole of it, if so then an arrow or other edged projectile would be a very ineffective device. No matter what the energy level is, if the projectile is not able to penetrate deep enough to quickly disrupt the funtion of vital organs it will do a very poor job of killing an animal. The bullets used in .22 centerfires are not generally designed to penetrate deeply, especially on an animal as large as a deer. Add in the possibility of hitting a bone such as a rib or scapula and the odds of a quick death are reduced greatly. Kind of compare it to hitting a window with an egg and a golf ball. Even if thrown at the same speed, the egg will break upon striking the window and, at best, crack the window. The golf ball will go through with no problem as it is constructed more solidly. As you wrote, a hit to the heart with anything will kill a deer; the trick is to get it there.