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I'm stunned,I sold 4 mod 94,s in 2005,should have kept them,I just can't believe the mod 70 will go,I was trying to save up for a classic 70,wow,I better start looking for another 94.Drop-Shot
 

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Dropshot,
Did ya read JP's post? As usual, he hit the nail on the head. Dead center and driven in with one blow!

We all need to be sure that WE don't let this stuff continue. WE need to be introducing and mentoring young or new shooters. The decline, of new shooters and/or hunters, in my part of the country is there ,just not as noticeable. We don't have all that many Dad's bringing their kids to the range either. Why? Do we not have the time or patience?

My New Years Resolution(which I never make!) has just been decided for me...I'm gonna start inviting folks to go with me to the range and hunting. If we all just got 3 people started down the right path,this year,we'd be making a start at least.

Losing companies like this is a hurtful thing to me. Makes ya wonder what's next,huh?

HWD
 

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Good idea HWD,there are new gun manufactours that have sprung up in the last 10-20 years and american companys are having a hard time keeping the price down and quality up.I too will make it my resolution to introduce at least 3 folks if not more to shooting this year,if Winchester is having financial problems you know other companys are feeling the pinch too,more shooters will surely help.I buy as much as I can get away with and afford as all on this forum does,we all are doing what we can,I just wish I could do more.Yea it does make you wonder what will happen next,I thought my great grand children would get the chance to shoot a Winchester 94,the gun that tamed the west,I'll see to it there are a couple lying around.Take care buddy.Drop-Shot
 

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If this is true, Then it is a very sad day for everyone in the gun hobby. The 94 was the last of the "true" cowboy lever guns. I s'pose it is a sign of the times. Even though I am of the thinking that the lever gun is a concept in which the tinme for it has come and is already gone. Never the less to kill production of a gun which is nothing short f a clasic marks a very sad day for this sport.
 

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You know, I am not all that in ageement with JP. I have seen many young boys at our gun club with there dads . The 4H shooting team , High school shooting team , boy scouts, and many others in our area promote young shooters to shooting and hunting.Guys at my hunting club who have kids bring them . I see this everywhere, all it takes is for the same thing to happen in your state. Gloom and doom is not going to change things. Getting a kid involved is good , but that starts at home with your own.

YEA I know I don't talk like this but it really pisses me off that Whinechester is doing this. Whats next Fords and Chevys
 

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Re: re: End off the model '94!

8pointduck said:
You know, I am not all that in ageement with JP. I have seen many young boys at our gun club with there dads . The 4H shooting team , High school shooting team , boy scouts, and many others in our area promote young shooters to shooting and hunting.Guys at my hunting club who have kids bring them . I see this everywhere, all it takes is for the same thing to happen in your state. Gloom and doom is not going to change things. Getting a kid involved is good , but that starts at home with your own.

YEA I know I don't talk like this but it really pisses me off that Whinechester is doing this. Whats next Fords and Chevys
Say hey, 8point......

You are absolutely right about gloom and doom not changing anything. I am delighted that my expereince is alien to you and I hope that it remains that way. I pray that it does.

Fifteen years ago, if someone would have told me that a day would come when I'd be "reduced" to shooting air guns and shotguns on the 20 acre family hunting camp, I'd have thought they were nuts. If someone would have said that the day would come when I wouldn't be able to target shoot on the adjoining 570,000 acre National Forest, I'd have thought they were conspiracy-theory whackos, and written them off as such. In fact, I did exactly that.

But the fact that I couldn't see the future coming didn't stop it from getting here. It got here for me in 1998.

Before 1998, I'd see a few kids out at the range with their parents. I'd see a few kids at the clay games facility. I'd see more kids out in the National Forest, plinking with their parents.

The fact that I don't see many kids at formal target ranges isn't where the problem is. The problem is that if you live in metropolitan LA-Orange County, CA, you might have to drive 200 miles or more from home to find a place where you can target shoot with a firearm rifle legally.

Now, not only are the kids not interested in shooting, but the parents and grandparents are loosing interest, too. Why? Because they don't have anyplace to shoot rifles informally that is reasonably close to where they live.

Lucky for you that is not an issue in Griffin, GA. I sincerely hope it never becomes one.

But in any portion of this country that has experienced or is experiencing the same rabid growth as Southern California has and is, I think you'll find plenty of people who'd agree that my situation is more similar to theirs than yours is.

And it is this urbanization that will ultimately prove to be the insturment that changes the sport shooting paradigm, not just in California, but in many other states, as well.

Blessings and Tight Groups,
-JP
 

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I feel for you JP. It sounds like a disease that is spreading. It is happening here ( urban sprall) but the number of hunters and shooters are so great . This is a way of life here in the south. I see vast numbers of guns bought each year at my friends gun shops ( more than one friend ). So I hope you can see why it upsets me when I here about other parts of the country failing when it comes to this subject .Not just for me but also for everyone else no matter where you live.
 

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Re: re: End off the model '94!

8pointduck said:
I feel for you JP. It sounds like a disease that is spreading. It is happening here ( urban sprall) but the number of hunters and shooters are so great . This is a way of life here in the south. I see vast numbers of guns bought each year at my friends gun shops ( more than one friend ). So I hope you can see why it upsets me when I here about other parts of the country failing when it comes to this subject .Not just for me but also for everyone else no matter where you live.
Say Hey, 8point.....

Believe it or not, the shooting sports were pretty vibrant here in Southern California at one time. And I'm not talking about back in Grandpa's day, either. But in my lifetime.

15 years ago, Orange County (home of Disneyland) where I live had something over 20 specialty gun dealers, and they did enough business to stay afloat in spite of the fact that Wal-Mart had just made inroads into Southern California and sold pretty nice stuff -Brownings, Weatherbys, Winchesters, Remingtons, and Rugers, as did Sportmart (AKA Gart's or SportsAuthority) which also sold Smith and Wesson and Ruger handguns. We had a shooting range about 15 miles from my current home, right here in the same county. The place was packed with shooters, and they even had the range lit at night.

After we went to multiple-zone deer management in about 1977, the zone that I hunted was alotted 3,000 tags that went on sale in the middle of June and sold out by the second week of August, if not sooner. One year, I didn't get a tag because I got down to the DFG office 3 weeks after they went on sale only to find that they'd sold out a week previously. Most of the deer zones in Southern California sold out like that.

Colleges still had competitive shooting programs. I shot on air rifle silhouette in college.

It went from that to what it is in just 15 years and NOBODY saw it coming.

I make my living writing for regional fly fishing and hunting / shooting magazines, so I have a few contacts in the industry, and the picture they paint is anything but rosey.

Recreational shooting will certainly continue. The thing is that some diciplines will fall out of favor (rifle shooting) while others increase (shotgun sports).

But the face of shooting will surely change, as will the faces of those that participate in it.

When I was a kid, big game hunting was far more popular in this state than upland hunting was. Most of the 30 some-odd men in our camp were blue-collar types working in construction, manufacturing, or mechanics / maintenance. I was one of the few in camp with a college degree, and I was a police officer after college. These guys could afford nice guns, the accountrements of hunting (which weren't much back then), the four-wheel drive vehicle needed to hunt out here in the west, and half of them could afford a pickup and camper on top of all of that, while still paying a mortgage and saving to put kids through college, and they could do it with wives who were "homemakers" for the most part. They retired with nice pensions when they finally got the "golden handshake."

Who do I hunt with now?

This year, I finally got a little group together that totals about ten in number, including my wife and I. All are "white collar" types with college educations -engineers, doctors, lawyers, business owners, or executives. They can afford the $950,000 house, and the $46,000 SUV, and the $3,000 bird dog, and the additional $3,000 for training, and they can afford to spend $4,000 on the shotgun they hunt with, and they all have more than one. They are all older than I am -though some aren't by much. They all make much more money than I do, and the only reason we're in the same social circle is because of the local noterity I have through my outdoor writing. They are white collar folks with white collar tastes in outdoors pursuits, so they hunt upland game, fish with fly rods, and play golf, either with clubs and balls, or the shotgun version we know as sporting clays.

And the other hunters that I meet in the field are just like them.

So the California shooter is fast becoming a white-collar shotgunner, rather than a blue-collar rifleman. The kind of guns that they want to buy aren't something that Wal-Mart wants to deal with. Everything else they get through mail order. They even buy guns that way, from places like Joel Etchen or Aspen Outfitters, or Lion Country Supply.

Shooting will indeed continue. My point is that the face of it is rapidly changing way from a blue-collar pursuit of riflemen to a white-collar pursuit enjoyed by fewer, wealthier shotgunners, and the dynamics behind this are complex and interwoven.

But USRAC obviously regognizes this because they still plan on selling guns with the Winchester name on them.

They're mostly shotguns -fairly high-end ones at that.

-JP
 

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Well I must be well rounded.Because I can go for the upland game birds with my Berreta o/u, or for those big game whitetails with my trusty Browning A bolt. There is still a thing called location location location and the south aint the west. I hunt and shoot with people from all walks of life,from Doctors to ditchdiggers. I even was in a hunting club with a army colonal. This is a way of life for us from Texas to the Carolinas. Oh yes ,Someone here said NC was in trouble :roll: . I'm not trying to make you angry. I'm trying to get you to understand it's not the great doom and gloom you portray , and if you are a writer then why don't you appeal to these blue collar workers and get some of them back outdoors.

Well it looks like if I'm going to be a bigshot this spring I better get rid of that nasty ol, bassboat and get me some of them waders(O yea ,I got those).should I wear my tweed jacket too. :lol: .O yes ,can't forget that flyrod.Orvis is it.......just joking
 

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Re: re: End off the model '94!

8pointduck said:
I'm not trying to make you angry. I'm trying to get you to understand it's not the great doom and gloom you portray , and if you are a writer then why don't you appeal to these blue collar workers and get some of them back outdoors.
8point:

I'm not angry. I'm glad that my reality is not your own where our recreational shooting hobby is concerned. I hope it stays that way for you, too.

It isn't doom and gloom that I am trying to portray. We will still have recreational shooting here in California for many decades to come. The thing that I was trying to make YOU understand is that firearms rifle shooting will continue to play a smaller role on the overall shooting sceene here. That could be translated as "doom and gloom" to someone who is only interested in shooting firearms rifles. For those whose primary interest was in shotgun sports, they won't see much in the way of change, other than the places where they can buy things related to their shooting hobby will never be as great in number as they were 15 years ago. The dynamics at play that are causing this paradigm shift are not alien to California and, as others have pointed out, are fairly common to states with substantial population growth.

You hit on something that we can both agree on. The south, indeed, ain't the west. If, however, you feel that by pointing this out you are somehow bolstering an argument that the overall health of the shooting hobby in your corner of the world is better than it is in mine because of some deep-rooted affinity for shooting sports shared only among sons and daughters of the south, I would heartily disagree.

California is the state where Roy Weatherby hung his shingle when he set about on his mission to sell the hunting community on his high velocity magnum rifles. It is the state in which Pachmyer prospered. It is the same state in which Fred Huntington set up shop, making reloading equipment. Sierra Bullets used to be headquartered less than two miles from my family home, and my father and I used to buy .308 MatchKings there by the pound. One of the largest gun shops in the country was located here. The AMT automag pistols and Lightining rifles were made here. Olympic shooter Kim Rhode was born here and still lives here.

I am in fact a writer by trade. I was also a licensed hunting and fishing guide in this state from 1995 to 2005, and embarked on my writing career while still operating my guide service. I guided fly fishers and upland game bird hunters because that was and is where the market is at for the type of service I was providing. I am a contributing editor for California Fly Fisher, was an essay columnist for Sporting Days California, wrote for L.A. Times Outdoors until the paper dropped the section this past December, and I do articles every now and then for California Game and Fish. In addition to this, I own an outdoors media company that produces books on fly fishing and small game / upland hunting. The reason why I write for the publications that I work with is because they buy what I send them. The reason why my own company is focused on those areas outlined above is because books and video materials on those subjects sell well here in what is admittedly a regional market. Our upland hunting opportunites abound, and we've got plenty of world-class fly fishing waters. Our bass fishing is pretty good, too. By the way, can you guess what state has produced the most IGFA records for largemouth bass? I can tell you that it ain't Georgia.

Given that I make my living at what is, in essence, preaching to a "faithful congregation," what kind of opportunities do I really have to evangilize to those blue-collar folks who've dropped out of shooting over the years? Nobody is telling them that they can't buy an 870 and enjoy quail hunting right at the suburban / wilderness interface in those areas where it is legal to do so (and there are plenty of those). I've written plenty of how to / where to upland articles, including one that ran in a newspaper with a daily circulation of 976,000. The thing about preaching, though, is that it isn't very effective if the person being preached to is pre-disposed to dismiss the message.

How willing would you be to spend $1,500 on a rifle and scope, $200.00 on good binoculars, $25,000+ on the four-wheel drive SUV you need to hunt out here, $60.00 on licenses and tags, $35.00 on annual National Forest "Adventure Passes," $10.00 a day for camping, and $40.00 to $60.00 for the fuel required to get to to a hunting area and home again, all for the ability to hunt deer in a zone where the average hunter success rate is 7% or less? That kind of success rate (or lack thereof) is pretty typcial for most deer management zones in California.

How willing would you be to do the above as a blue-collar man striving to make the mortgage on the median-priced $650,000 house?

Now, how willing would you be to spend $1,500 on a shotgun, $25,000+ on the 4X4 you need to hunt out here, and all of the rest of the things you need for upland hunting when you don't have to travel as far from home for an outstanding upland shoot as you do for a piss-poor big game hunt? You'll actually be able to shoot that shotgun in the off-season, too, without having to drive over 150 miles from your large metropolitan area neighborhood to do it.

So we can agree that there are some differences between your neck of the woods and mine.

My point is that these differences affect you indirectly, even if they don't directly match your personal experience.

The reason for this that California was once one of the top shooting sports markets in the country, and it wasn't that long ago when that was true. The fact that this is no longer the case where rifle shooting is concerned does have an impact on shooters elsewhere, because of the economics of scale. If firearms makers like USRAC didn't need the California market, or if it wasn't important to them, they wouldn't spend big bucks on full-color ads in regional magazines here. The fact that it is a shrinking market does impact their bottom line, and the fact that it does impact their bottom line does have some effect on their financial health, and thus their ability to make rifles at a price that folks are willing to pay in other areas of the country.

If the deep south is the only region in the country where rifle sales still do a booming business, you tell me how long you would expect a company like USRAC to survive in the face of lower-cost domestic and overseas competition.

I'm not giving up on those blue-collar drop-outs, either. If I have any missionary zeal, it is to convert Golden State riflemen and big game hunters into upland game bird shooters and shotgunners, because here in California, the opportunites for engaging in these pursuits are still abundant, and are expected to remain so. That isn't so for rifle shooting and big game hunting here.

Yesterday, I went out to a place 105 miles from home -close by and local, considering that 80 miles of that travel is within a metropolitan area- and had a most enjoyable quail and rabbit hunt, broken up by lunch and a little shooting at hand-thrown clays. That kind of experience will remain available for many, many years to come, but it is one wherein an M-70 Winchester rifle or an M-94 rifle is worthless.

And so I AM doing something to "get those blue collar people out shooting again." That is part of my motivation for participating in this thread. It is to point out to my fellow Californians, and to others in other parts of the country faced with similar circumstances, that the world isn't over if you find that you don't have much use for a rifle anymore. There are alternatives -like clays games and upland hunting- that are enjoyable in their own right.

-JP
 

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8point you said in an earlier post,"whats next ford and chevys?"I saw on the news today that ford will lay off 30,000 workers within the next couple of months.Imagine,no fords and chevys and no Winchester.I'm too young to have seen it all.Drop-Shot
 

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First the lighter side . The only reason Cali. has those bass is because of the Florida strain largemouth that came from the south!
Well JP, you really told me. Ol Roy and the rest must really love Cali. now ( I know they have passed,thats a joke) . No, the South isn't the ONLY place in the country that these manufactorers need to sell thier products, but I don't see anyone from Kansas, Montana, Maine,or anywhere else typing on thier keyboards how the way things are we just don't need these guns because shotguns are taking over ( OK this is a little overboard).Before you write me another book for a post I understand everything you typed was about Cali.. For the majority of the U.S., big game is king .Not to say upland hunting isn't popular(HEAVEN FORBID)I would surely hate that with a passion. I wouldn't know what to do with all these shotguns I have :) . The one thing I have to point out is my friends from California who live here now tell me how good the blacktail deer hunting is in the Northern part of the state.Is that not true :?:
 

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Oh yea Drop, The Fords thing will impact Atlanta. Along with G.M'S Doraville plant thousands of jobs are going to be lost. I blame the unions along with the auto industry for this . You know they will go overseas .I can't see America being able to take much more.
 
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