Rifle Newbie with some ?'s....

Discussion in 'Rifle Talk' started by drew, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. drew

    drew Guest

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    Hi guys just regiestered after hearing about this site from Shotgun World.
    I am just starting to get into rifles now and already have 2.
    I have a .22LR with a fixed 4x Nikon on top
    and I also have a Marlin 336 in .30-30 with a Leupold VX-II 2x7 on top. Other than that, its just pistols, revolvers, and of course...shotguns.

    So I am thinking about adding another rifle to my stable within the year. I have some thoughts, so I am just going to ramble for a bit. Please feel free to post your thoughts and suggestions.

    I know for a fact that sometime in the future (not now) I eventually want a 7mm Rem Mag in something SS. So that will be my big game gun, which for now, I unfortunatly dont have a whole lot of use for, thus the decision to persue that caliber at a later date.

    Then I thought that a .243 Win in a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight would be a sweet set up. I mostly will be varmint-ing and yote shootin. One of the great things about the .243 as I understand it is that depending on bullet wt., the .243 can be either a varmint or deer round. If I were to go deer hunting, i would take the tried and true .30-30, which would leave the .243 set up for varmints.

    With that thinking, I started reading and researching the pure "varmint" calibers. In my readings it seems as though the .22-250 is regarded as a great varminter, with widely dist. ammo, and guns. One of the guns that stands out to me in this particular caliber is the Remington model 700 VS SF II.

    So the qustion is, should I go with a strictly High Velocity Varmint rifle/cartridge, or get a "tweener" like the .243?
    Remember, the only other thing I would do with the .243 that the .22-.250 cant do is deer sized game, and the .30-30 is more than capable in that regard, and I will be adding a 7mm Mag down the line in maybe a Rem Model 700 BDL or the like.

    Let me know what you all think, thanks in advance for your time!

    -Drew
     
  2. grimel

    grimel Guest

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    Unless you reload, the 223 will be cheaper than the 22-250. One absolute FACT you need to understand rifles are just as addictive as shotguns. You can forget buying a 22-250 and 7mm RemMag and being done with it.

    I can see where you need at least two just for your stated purpose. A 22-250 (or 223, or 222) for varmints and a 22 Hornet for coyotes and other fur bearing critters. The hornet will do much less pelt damage without having to resight your rifle when you swap tasks. Anyhow, a groundhog/praire dog/crow/etc rifle can be a heavy thick ong barreled beast, but a good calling rifle is short, light, and fast handling.

    See? I've just doubled your needs without even trying. ;) Which ever 223/22-250/222 you chose find a rifle your comfortable using from either Browning, Remington, Sako, Savage, Tikka, or Winchester. Put a nice 4-12x maybe 6-18x on it and go. Then (or before if you are shooting 200ish yards) get a 22 Hornet (I'm partial to the inexpensive NEF Handi Rifles) for calling (and 200 yr or less varmits) and put a 2-7x, 1-6x scope on it.
     

  3. drew

    drew Guest

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    Dang, thanks for the reply.

    Yeah I knew this would happen. Ya know if i had more money than I knew what to do with...wait I know exactly what I would do with it!

    So anyway, lets narrow down caliber. Which caliber, in your opinion would serve best for things from prarie dogs to yotes?
    Bear in mind, I dont shoot the yotes for the pelts. Just want em dead if they start messin up my animals. I have a buddy that takes em off my hands when I do get one ( which isnt very often).

    I also thought that the .22-250 had better ballistics to the .223, no? The 220swift looks good, but have heard that bbl erosion is a problem with that round.

    Please feel free to comment as I want to learn and keep this discussion goin!

    Thanks again!
    Respectfully-
    Drew
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    IF memory serves me right the 22-250 does have some advantages to the 223 but IMO you would be hard pressed to identify them way out there. The 223 is just cheaper to shoot. I have several rifles in both calibers but I shoot the 223 the most. 22-250 ammo runs around $14 a box, 223 can be picked up at wally world or academy for around $9 for 50 and they shoot pretty well. Get what you want, you can get alot of opinions from those "in the know" but if it is not what you really wanted you won't be happy, or that is how it is for me. I don't actually know many that sell coyote hides, I certainly don't, they aren't worth much in my neck of the woods.

    I will say this, and its my opinion, the 7mm Mag is a GREAT choice. It is my favorite hunting round and the rifle caliber that I shoot the most. I am not one of those "1 weekend a year magnum shooters" either. I have enjoyed my 7 mags and the recoil is not that bad, more muzzle flip than anything else. I have used it for deer, antelope, mule deer and elk and have not had any bad results. I have shot many coyotes and hogs with it also. It is a fantastic hog gun, they don't run. I am not as fond of my 300 magnums. Oh yeah, I have had guides that were not the least bit disappointed that my gun of choice was not a 30-06. I love the 30-06 and have several in different brands and models but its not my 1st choice.

    A 243 is a good "tweener" rifle it will kill deer and varmints. I choose not to shoot deer with my 243's but I don't hesitate to shoot them with my 30-30's.

    A 220 swift is a great round, not sure about all the erosion talk, mine is pretty old and has been shot a bunch and it still shoots really small groups.

    Get what you want in a rifle that you are comfortable with and enjoy shooting it. I am not an expert on what others should need or want.
     
  5. grimel

    grimel Guest

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    One of my local friends cases the coyote hides he gets (223) and sells them on Ebay for $40ish. Just a thought.

    If all you want is a dead coyote, any 22 centerfire will work. The hornet is about the quitest (if you are in populated areas). The 220 Howell (handload only) is the flatest. The 22-250 is a good all around choice. The 223 is just CHEAP to shoot and Wal-Mart carries the ammo, it may or may not (depending on your area) carry 22-250. The 223, 22-250, and 220 Swift are all good out past 300yds. The Camp Pendleton boys are putting up obscene scores with accurized M-16's (223).

    As for rifles, take a look at savagearms.com for the money it's the best rifle going for accurate shooting. I have 2 pre-accutrigger Savages. They just shoot.

    All that said, I'm getting a 17 Rem for varmits and fur bearers. I handlooad or I'd get a 223 and 22 Hornet. I'm cheap.
     
  6. bbanbury

    bbanbury Super Member

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    Drew,

    I think Grimel is right on in his advice. Regarding the 223 vs. 22-250, you will probably find or hear info regarding reported accuracy advantags of the 22-250 over the 223. It probably does exist but I think it's partly due to all the 223 ammo available out there vs. the more specialized and expensive 22-250 ammo. i.e. Not always an apples to apples comparison. For what it sounds like you want to do, I think a 223 in a SS Savage bolt would be a good choice. Not the best looking gun(s) but very accurate vs. what you'll pay.

    I've also heard the barrel erosion issue with the 220 Swift. There are some articles out there that back it up but the bottom line was that you'd have to run a lot of ammo through it before you notice it.
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I guess the Savages are good guns and supposedly have a great trigger. They just don't appeal to me and they have no re-sale value. The last gun show I went to there were alot of Savages on the tables but not many buyers and there were a bunch of people that were trying to sell or trade the ones they had. I don't doubt it is a good rifle and a good shooter but maybe not a good investment.

    I think you originally asked about the Remington 700 and to me that is a much better choice even if it costs a little more it will hold its value better. Weatherby, Sako, Winchester are some more that will hold their value and they look nice.
     
  8. grimel

    grimel Guest

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    IIRC, the 220 Swift barrel erosion came from light bullets being ran at max pressure (to hit the magic 4000fps level).

    If you don't want a Savage (mine make cloverleafs if I do my part) the list is long and varied for good 223's.

    In no particular order: Ruger, Sako, Tikka, Weatherby (Howa), Howa, Rem (700 ADL), Win, Mossberg, and Thompson/Center. It is really hard to buy a crap rifle if you buy the major players. As I said earlier, play around and find one that fits you and you are comfortable with the controls. Look at the single shots and autos. Options abound.

    The Encore offers a neat option - one action, one stock, one forearm, and barrels (any thing from 22lr to 458 Win, black powder and 12ga included). These (and the Contender) make for light compact bug hole group shooting rifles.

    Stick around, I'll make this a very expensive hobby. :twisted:
     
  9. wired

    wired Guest

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    Between the .22-250 and the .223 is mostly a range decision. If you're going to be shooting 'yotes and such under 200 yards, .223 is plenty accurate and a damn good cartridge (the same could be said of the .22 Hornet, which works better in single-shot rifles than the .223). If you want to stretch out a bit more (beanfield varminting, prairie dogs, etc), the .22-250 has a bit of an advantage. The barrel erosion from the .220 Swift isn't as big a deal these days. Barrels have gotten much better since the Swift came out, so they don't erode as quickly.
     
  10. drew

    drew Guest

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    Thanks for the replies-

    As of now I am leaning towards the .22-250. I figure its nice to have the extra "reach" when its needed. I will obviously be new to "varmitin" and think the extra potential there would be good to have.
    Now to keep searching for the "right" rifle...
    I still say that the Rem 700 Sendaro VS SF looks pretty awsome!

    Say you know the rifle is only 1/2 the equation and the glass is the other.
    I am most familure with low power fixed and variable power 3x9 ish types with out the "AO". Question is, what does turning that AO knob do? I know it is for parallax adjustment, but what does that mean? Dose it just focus the sight picture crisper when you are way dialed in, like at 12x or higher?
    As of now I am leaning towards the Nikon Monarch line of scopes. I have their low end scope on my .22 (Prostaff) and that is one of the brightest, most clear scope for about $100 I have EVER seen. Those Monarchs have also gotten great reviews latley, and for what you are getting, pretty reasonably priced.

    Thanks again to all-

    Drew
     
  11. wwb

    wwb Super Member

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    I just ran some numbers through my handy-dandy ballistics program.....

    .223 Rem - 60 grain - 3160 fps at the muzzle

    .22-250 - 60 grain - 3500 fps at the muzzle

    Scope 1.5" above bore centerline, zero at 200 yards for both guns

    at 100 yards: .223 is +1.6" .22-250 is +1.1"

    at 300 yards: .223 is -7.9" .22-250 is -6.2"

    at 400 yards: .223 is -24.7" .22-250 is -19.3"

    In my opinion, that isn't enough difference to warrant the extra cost of shooting the .22-250.
     
  12. wired

    wired Guest

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    This is where I must disagree. The rifle is 5% of the equation, the glass is 5%. The other 90% is the guy behind them. Get good with any rifle, and which rifle/caliber you choose will become less and less of an issue. Practice regularly with a .22 Hornet or a .220 Swift (or any other cartridge, for that matter) for a few years, and you'll be able to hit a lot more consistantly than some guy with the hottest gear and the fanciest caliber that has just sighted it in. Just be sure that you're comfortable with whichever rifle you choose BEFORE you buy it, and it'll be the one you reach for first even if you have a cabinet full of them. A good quality bolt action .22-250 with a quality scope would definately be a strong starting point.
     
  13. huntswithdogs

    huntswithdogs Moderator

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    wired,

    There used to be a saying about "beware of the man with one gun". The advice that you just gave is GREAT! A lot of folks get this MORE effect going on in their head. The whole time,the OLD RELIABLE in the gun rack, was all you ever needed. I know this doesn't sell many guns,the truth cuts the deepest.

    HWD
     
  14. drew

    drew Guest

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    Hey guys, you are completly right. I was over simplifying just to make a point to get a decent quality scope at the least for your given application.
    I am way better with a shotgun than anyother type of firearm because I get to shoot WAY more SG than handgun or rifle, but I hope to be "spreading myself out" a little more in '05.

    Thanks for all the replies-
    Good shootin

    Drew
     
  15. grimel

    grimel Guest

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    Parallax is a fancy word for alignment error. As you get farther and magnification goes up alignment becomes more critical (eye to scope). The AO moves the parallax adjusment point (basically zero error) out to the target. The catch (you there'd be one, right?) is the adjustment and markings are only generally related. You need to sit down at a bench and use the AO at various ranges and note the effect.

    Here is a longer better explaination:

    http://www.mdenterprise.com/parallax.htm
     
  16. wired

    wired Guest

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    This is one of the reasons I haven't bought very many firearms recently (that and the fact that they cost MONEY). If I were to get rid of every firearm I own except for one or two, the ones I'd probably keep would be my Ruger .308 and one of my pistols (I never go out in the woods without one on my hip). Which pistol would be a HARD choice. If I ever have "real money", I'm certain I'll pick up new toys, but until then, the stuff in my cabinet works just fine.

    Yeah drew, I figured that was the case. As far as hardware is concerned, I'd say it would be about a 50/50 split for the rifle and scope. Good sights will make a huge difference on any firearm. About the only other thing that would improve it more than a good scope would be a good trigger.
     
  17. luv2safari

    luv2safari Moderator

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    wired,

    While I do like the 28 bore, I feel you are better served by a 30 caliber like the 300 Win, instead of the 7mm mag. I know I'll get some flack here, and it is deserved...the 7mm Rem and Wby magnums are fantastic calibers. I shot my first caribou with a 7mm Wby when I was 14...I'm now 57.

    I would bump everything up just a notch and say get a 243 for varmints and a 30 caliber for future big game hunts. I can see an elk and moose :shock: in your future...maybe even African plains game. 8)

    The 243 and 244 (6mm Rem now) were designed for varmint use, and occasional deer/antelope hunting. The 243 gained the better reputation because Winchester had the sense to twist their barrels faster, so one could shoot 100-105 gr bullets that didn't wobble like the 244 Rem. That's where the 243 got its deer hunting reputation. It is a great varmint gun caliber that has a dual role when needed. :idea: :wink:

    By the way, I like 22-250, 222, 223, 220 Swift, 225 Win, 7mm Rem, 7mm Wby...all good calibers and can't say anything bad about any of them when used within their capabilities.
     
  18. drew

    drew Guest

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    uv2safari-

    Since the .243 has a faster twist to stabilize the 100 gr bullets, does that then sacrifice the accuracy (or anything else) with the lighter varmint bullets?

    I mean I have a deer gun, and am not considering a "big game" rifle "yet". Strictly for punchin paper, and ver-mints wouldnt it make sense to go with one of the .224 caliber cartriges, a la .223, .22-250, .220 Swift ....

    Thanks in advance-

    Drew
     
  19. wwb

    wwb Super Member

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    Drew -

    The only problem caused by the faster twist arises when you load VERY light bullets right to the max. The extremely high muzzle velocity, combined with the faster rate of twist, can spin the bullet so fast that centrifugal force tears it apart after it leaves the barrel.

    I've never heard of this problem in the .243, though... just in some of the .22 calibers with faster-than-standard twists.... but I suppose it could happen. What luv2safari was referring to was a marketing blunder on the part of Remington that caused their .244 to be unsuitable for heavier (longer) bullets, thereby limiting it to use as a varmint gun. The .243 Win, with the faster twist, could use a heavier bullet, making it suitable (though marginal) for deer-sized game.
     
  20. TXVAshooter

    TXVAshooter Guest

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    Drew-

    Strictly observation for me here. I've got both a .223 and a .243. I've owned the .22-250 as well. In a perfect world, I'd kept all of them.

    My first rifle was the Savage lefty .243. I've used it on deer my whole life, and it's always been efficient as long as I did my part. I then bought a .22-250 for varmits. Ruger Mk II, stainles steel grayed bull barrel, put a loopy 4-12 Vari x II on it. Tack driver, heavy heavy heavy gun. Even killed a deer or two (however, they were neck shots at 50 yards kind of thing) with it, and shot many varmits with it, although never anything past 300 years (terrain did not have that kinda milerage to it.) Cost a lot to shoot on my college budget. Later on, traded it in (kept the scope) and got a NEF handi rifle in .223 with bull barrel. Excellent tack driver, less expensive to shoot, and kills as far as I can shoot straight with it. If I had to redo, I'd keep the .223. A joy to shoot. Inbetween those times, I used the .243 as a varmit rig as well, with ballisitic silvertips. It blows things up. (I never did it for pelt keeping, only predator control). Moral of story is that all three work well for the uses you state. The .243 would be adequate for the deer as well, should you be inbetween like you note. I'd grab a .223, get good with it, and leave the deer hunting to the .30-30, a tried and true caliber. Really depends on terrain where you hunt, and how much you plan to shoot, etc.

    My .223 and .243 work great for me, but I rarely shoot over 200 yards. I've added a 7 mag recently to my cadre as well, for an eventual elk hunt.

    Just more info for the brain, really-

    TxVa