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·How much would it cost to have a gun smith put open sights on a Remington .223 VS?
Sightless Rifles
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Don't be a Shy Guy! 
Sign up and join us here. We tweek each outher's noses at times and have a great time telling lies. :wink:
Gunsmithing is about $50.00 to $75.00 plus the price of a set of sights...$55.00 to $100.00. This in my area, however, and things might be priced better in other parts of the country.
Sign up and join us here. We tweek each outher's noses at times and have a great time telling lies. :wink: Gunsmithing is about $50.00 to $75.00 plus the price of a set of sights...$55.00 to $100.00. This in my area, however, and things might be priced better in other parts of the country.
I love open sights. I'm not sure, at rather close ranges that I don't shoot using a peep sight just as well as I do using a scope.
Sure people swear by scopes, but I don't. I did a lot of shooting in the Marine Corps. We never used scopes, and we did well.
Now Marines have scopes afixed to their M-4's. And scopes probably are a little bit better, but peep sights are cheaper, work fine up to maybe 150 yds and are easier to lug around.
Sure people swear by scopes, but I don't. I did a lot of shooting in the Marine Corps. We never used scopes, and we did well.
Now Marines have scopes afixed to their M-4's. And scopes probably are a little bit better, but peep sights are cheaper, work fine up to maybe 150 yds and are easier to lug around.
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I, too, really prefer open sights (aperture sights, to be exact. My eyes won't aloow me to use them any longer, though (focus problems). So, reluctantly, I have switched over to low/ fixed magnification scopes, on everything.
Re: re: Sightless Rifles
Nobody ever said this getting old crap was going to be easy.
Slugman, have you ever used one of the Burris low power variables? I bought a used Savage 99 and it had one mounted on it. I like it pretty well, if I have to use a scope.
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.
Yeah, my bulbs are on the way out too, but I can still see through peep sights okay. Not nearly as good as I used to, but then again EVERYTHING used to work better than it does now.slugmensch said:
Nobody ever said this getting old crap was going to be easy.
Slugman, have you ever used one of the Burris low power variables? I bought a used Savage 99 and it had one mounted on it. I like it pretty well, if I have to use a scope.
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.
Re: re: Sightless Rifles
Nobody ever said this getting old crap was going to be easy.
Slugman, have you ever used one of the Burris low power variables? I bought a used Savage 99 and it had one mounted on it. I like it pretty well, if I have to use a scope.
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.
Yeah, my bulbs are on the way out too, but I can still see through peep sights okay. Not nearly as good as I used to, but then again EVERYTHING used to work better than it does now.slugmensch said:
Nobody ever said this getting old crap was going to be easy.
Slugman, have you ever used one of the Burris low power variables? I bought a used Savage 99 and it had one mounted on it. I like it pretty well, if I have to use a scope.
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.
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No, Logjam, I have never had a Burris scope. I have always heard good things about them, though. I am a "fixed magnification" kind of guy (old-fashioned, I guess). Certainly, there are loads of high-quality variable scopes available... your Burris is probably one of them.... and I certainly do see the value in them, in some situations. The good ones are just rather pricey, though. I have always been able to get by just fine on fixed mag. scopes. I never shoot beyond 200 yds, anyway, so it is just as well. Right now, I am using a Swift 2 x 20 LER on my "scout rifle"... this allows me to get 2" or smaller groups @ 100 yds. (and is very easy on my eyes). I have a 4X Nikon in reserve - for the day when I know I will need to go back to a scope in the conventional position.
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Re: re: Sightless Rifles
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.[/quote]
L-jam,
That Burris scope will be a good one. I've used them in harsh conditions from 125+ degrees F to -25F and have knocked them around pretty hard...all with good outcomes.
What power range is that Burris on the 99?
BTW: That Burris scope is an expensive scope and it was just thrown in with the rifle (I bought it at a gun show). The mounts were pretty spendy as well.[/quote]
L-jam,
That Burris scope will be a good one. I've used them in harsh conditions from 125+ degrees F to -25F and have knocked them around pretty hard...all with good outcomes.
What power range is that Burris on the 99?
Re: re: Sightless Rifles
That Burris scope will be a good one. I've used them in harsh conditions from 125+ degrees F to -25F and have knocked them around pretty hard...all with good outcomes.
What power range is that Burris on the 99?[/quote]
It's a 1.5x to 5x. I'm looking at the gun as I write. the Savage looks absolutely new, and the Burris scope is pretty small and looks good on that 99 as it's a pretty short. It's a featherweight. Has a jeweled bolt too, which adds to it's appearance. It's in .308, which means it's about all of the gun one would need in the US.
L-jam,luv2safari said:
That Burris scope will be a good one. I've used them in harsh conditions from 125+ degrees F to -25F and have knocked them around pretty hard...all with good outcomes.
What power range is that Burris on the 99?[/quote]
It's a 1.5x to 5x. I'm looking at the gun as I write. the Savage looks absolutely new, and the Burris scope is pretty small and looks good on that 99 as it's a pretty short. It's a featherweight. Has a jeweled bolt too, which adds to it's appearance. It's in .308, which means it's about all of the gun one would need in the US.
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L-Jam,
That is one nice set-up! I like 308; I like Mdl 99s, and I like the Burris 1.5x5...can't find anything at all wrong with your rifle...except that it isn't MY rifle...! :twisted: :wink:
That is one nice set-up!
I like 308; I like Mdl 99s, and I like the Burris 1.5x5...can't find anything at all wrong with your rifle...except that it isn't MY rifle...! :twisted: :wink:
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25 Posts
howdy guys,
All of my riffles have open sights. except my marlin .22LR. I have found I can shoot better with open sights on my 30-06 than with my .22LR. Maybe I just haven't shot long enough.
All of my riffles have open sights. except my marlin .22LR. I have found I can shoot better with open sights on my 30-06 than with my .22LR. Maybe I just haven't shot long enough.
Re: re: Sightless Rifles
Those old Savage guns are just great guns.
Thank you. My gun, BTW: looks brand new. Bought it at a gun show recently for $350 that's with the scope, mounts and all.luv2safari said:L-Jam,
That is one nice set-up!
Those old Savage guns are just great guns.
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25 Posts
Howdy guys,
hey how ya'll doin!
I got some questions about the .308. I know that the .308 doesn't quite match the 30-06 in ballistics, in some loads, but is pretty close. My question is, what type of loads are you fellows shooting, and are you shooting them fast, as in 2600 fps with a 180 gr bullet or 2200.[ for example]vs. 2700 or 2800 fps with a 30-06 [same bullet]? I do also realize that these loads may or may not be accurate.
hey how ya'll doin!
I got some questions about the .308. I know that the .308 doesn't quite match the 30-06 in ballistics, in some loads, but is pretty close. My question is, what type of loads are you fellows shooting, and are you shooting them fast, as in 2600 fps with a 180 gr bullet or 2200.[ for example]vs. 2700 or 2800 fps with a 30-06 [same bullet]? I do also realize that these loads may or may not be accurate.
The 308 is so close that it doesn't make any differency from the .06. As for loads? Well, the loads depend upon the bullet used. For varmits use the 110 grainers. For deer use the 130 and 150 loads. For heavy game, like Elk and Moose use the 180 grainers.Jrboltaction said:
I live next door (almost) to the Nosler bullet plant. So I get fine bullets cheap (seconds). Generally I shoot the 150 grain bullets. You can drive them at 2800 fps or faster. That's plenty of bullet for most game.
When I was in the Marine Corps we were trained on the M-14 and the M-60. We used 147 grain bullets in both. We figured that we could kill an elephant with those babies.
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Hey L-jam,
Its always good to have some input from those who have experince;I kind of figured that the difference was small. but I needed a second opinion.
thanks
Its always good to have some input from those who have experince;I kind of figured that the difference was small. but I needed a second opinion.
thanks
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.308 vs .30/ 06
I agree with Logjam.... for the most part, there is not too much difference between the two, with a few exceptions. The .308 (150 gr.) produces velocities approx. 3 % to 4% lower than .30/06 (also 150 gr.)..... from muzzle to 500 yds. Energies vary from approx. -6 % to -7.5 % (again, from muzzle to 500 yds.). The .308 tends to have a bit more bullet drop at long ranges (beyond 400 yds).... though it tends to have a bit more accuracy - than the .30/06 (especially when using the optimum bullet weight - which is about 165 gr. for the .308, in a standard, 1 in 10" twist barrel).
The (only truly significant) advantage of the .30/06 is in range of bullet weights which it will support - a bit wider range than the .308. Anything from about 130 gr. to about 220 gr. will work well for the .30/06. For the .308, about 110 gr. to 180 gr. will give good results. This, coupled with a bit more oomph at long ranges gives the .30/06 an advantage for larger game. The .308, in practice, however, will "do the job" just fine.... as long as the ranges are kept a bit shorter.
As a practical matter, the .308 will do just about anything the .30/06 will do (within limits). It has been my favorite cartridge for a long time - and I have always found it up to any situation.
I agree with Logjam.... for the most part, there is not too much difference between the two, with a few exceptions. The .308 (150 gr.) produces velocities approx. 3 % to 4% lower than .30/06 (also 150 gr.)..... from muzzle to 500 yds. Energies vary from approx. -6 % to -7.5 % (again, from muzzle to 500 yds.). The .308 tends to have a bit more bullet drop at long ranges (beyond 400 yds).... though it tends to have a bit more accuracy - than the .30/06 (especially when using the optimum bullet weight - which is about 165 gr. for the .308, in a standard, 1 in 10" twist barrel).
The (only truly significant) advantage of the .30/06 is in range of bullet weights which it will support - a bit wider range than the .308. Anything from about 130 gr. to about 220 gr. will work well for the .30/06. For the .308, about 110 gr. to 180 gr. will give good results. This, coupled with a bit more oomph at long ranges gives the .30/06 an advantage for larger game. The .308, in practice, however, will "do the job" just fine.... as long as the ranges are kept a bit shorter.
As a practical matter, the .308 will do just about anything the .30/06 will do (within limits). It has been my favorite cartridge for a long time - and I have always found it up to any situation.
Very nicely put Slugman: During WWII the 06 used a 150 grain bullet pushed out at about 2800 fps. When we adopted the 7.62 (308) round we had to reduce the bullet weight to 147 grains to match the 06 in range and muzzle velocity.
I suggest that the diff between the 147 grain bullet and the 150 bullet while measurable is moot.
I have never fired the 220 grain bullet in either round, but if I wanted to shoot moose with my .308 I might try them. I'd probably settle for the a Nosler Partition with the 165 grain bullet in either caliber.
How much difference is there when the 220 grain bullet is loaded in both rounds? (I guess I could check my loading manuals).
So, I agree with you in both accounts. The 06 is a little faster, but the difference is very little; and I think the 7.62 round is a little more accurate.....but little is indeed little and not very important.
Here's another quandry that I have. I own a .257 Roberts and a Pre-64 model 70 in 270. I'm considering loading the 120 bullet in the roberts, and I already shoot the 130 grain bullet in the 270. Just how good is the Roberts 120 grain bullet and how does it stack up with the 130 grain bullet in the 270?
The thing is, my 257 (an old Ruger 77) is scoped and my 270 isn't. So, for long shots on Antelope I'm figuring that I need the scoped rifle. I just love the looks of that Winchester without the scope, and it really shoots great. If I can find a decent peep sight I'll mount one of those on the 270.
I suggest that the diff between the 147 grain bullet and the 150 bullet while measurable is moot.
I have never fired the 220 grain bullet in either round, but if I wanted to shoot moose with my .308 I might try them. I'd probably settle for the a Nosler Partition with the 165 grain bullet in either caliber.
How much difference is there when the 220 grain bullet is loaded in both rounds? (I guess I could check my loading manuals).
So, I agree with you in both accounts. The 06 is a little faster, but the difference is very little; and I think the 7.62 round is a little more accurate.....but little is indeed little and not very important.
Here's another quandry that I have. I own a .257 Roberts and a Pre-64 model 70 in 270. I'm considering loading the 120 bullet in the roberts, and I already shoot the 130 grain bullet in the 270. Just how good is the Roberts 120 grain bullet and how does it stack up with the 130 grain bullet in the 270?
The thing is, my 257 (an old Ruger 77) is scoped and my 270 isn't. So, for long shots on Antelope I'm figuring that I need the scoped rifle. I just love the looks of that Winchester without the scope, and it really shoots great. If I can find a decent peep sight I'll mount one of those on the 270.
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Logjam,
Don't even consider 200s or 220s in your 308. You have to seat them so deep that you loose gobs of velocity, and the accuracy drops off as a side effect. 180s are pushing the 308 to its limit. :?
As to the 257 Roberts (just happens to be a favorite of mine) try the Nosler 115s in it. The Roberts and Nosler 115 gr bullets were made for each other. I have an earlier Ruger 77 in 257 Roberts AKLY IMP and have killed many antelope and deer with it and 115 Nosler Partitions. Nosler now has a ballistic tip and a boat tail silvertip that should realy bring on down range!!! :shock:
I use the same bullets and loadings in my push feed Win 70 FW chambered to 257 I.C.L. Tortilla. 8) 8) 8)
Don't even consider 200s or 220s in your 308.
You have to seat them so deep that you loose gobs of velocity, and the accuracy drops off as a side effect. 180s are pushing the 308 to its limit. :? As to the 257 Roberts (just happens to be a favorite of mine) try the Nosler 115s in it. The Roberts and Nosler 115 gr bullets were made for each other. I have an earlier Ruger 77 in 257 Roberts AKLY IMP and have killed many antelope and deer with it and 115 Nosler Partitions. Nosler now has a ballistic tip and a boat tail silvertip that should realy bring on down range!!! :shock:
I use the same bullets and loadings in my push feed Win 70 FW chambered to 257 I.C.L. Tortilla. 8) 8) 8)
As to the 257 Roberts (just happens to be a favorite of mine) try the Nosler 115s in it. The Roberts and Nosler 115 gr bullets were made for each other. I have an earlier Ruger 77 in 257 Roberts AKLY IMP and have killed many antelope and deer with it and 115 Nosler Partitions. Nosler now has a ballistic tip and a boat tail silvertip that should realy bring on down range!!! :shock:
[/quote]
My Ruger 77 in .257 Roberts is one of the first made. Cost me $129 brand new. Was yours made in 257 AKLY imp or did you have it done? I've heard that it's a pretty good wildcat.
However, my old .257 shoots great and is very comfortable to shoot. I like the round. I'll try the 115 Noslers. I can get them for half price.
[/quote]
My Ruger 77 in .257 Roberts is one of the first made. Cost me $129 brand new. Was yours made in 257 AKLY imp or did you have it done? I've heard that it's a pretty good wildcat.
However, my old .257 shoots great and is very comfortable to shoot. I like the round. I'll try the 115 Noslers. I can get them for half price.
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I bought mine about 1981 for my son's first antelope hunt. I had Bob Dunlap of PISCO re-chamber it for me. Bob has long been an instructor at Lassen College's gunsmithing school.
The improved version doesn't kick much and is one of the true great wildcats.
The improved version doesn't kick much and is one of the true great wildcats.
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